Why is the Enclave Bad? (2024)

Hi everyone,

I really just dont understand why does everybodu hate the Enclave and think they are bad and that the Brotherhood of Steel is "GOOD". Here are my reasons why the Enclave are the Goodies.

1.They are the last remnants of the US government, so they can have access to just about every last military and social organization left.2.Funding, they have a so much more resources than the brotherhood! Verti-birds, massive moving platforms, missiles, advanced armor, thousands of troops, they already had clean water and food.3.Why exactly are they bad? They are trying to bring unity back to the USA4.The brotherhood is more or less another stupid cult just like the Church of Atom5.The Brotherhood are under-equipped6.The Enclave dont lie, they have to make everything seem nice so that dumb-wastelanders understand they are good.7.They have outposts that already distributed fresh water to people before Project P.8.THEY ARE THE DAMN GOVERNMENT WHY DOES EVERYONE WANT O GET RIDD OF THEM.

The enclave isnt bad. They are actually tring to help america but the way they want to do that is by controllling everything in the capital wasteland. But the brotherhood is trying to protect those people but the enclave thinks the brotherhood is trying to be the government so they want to kill them, So they also kill people working with the brotherhood, and some of their leaders are real jerks.MASHED AVACADO

As you can see i really dont understand it. In my eyes the Enclave is the USA'S only chance to rebuild again. The brotherhood is constantly looking for old technology to help do rebuild it WHILE THE ENCLAVE ALREADY HAS IT.The only reason people hate the Enclave is due to Pres.Eden who (i know is terrible). The enclave could have done god if Col.Autumn lead it!

LONG LIVE THE ENCLAVE

OH AND BY THE WAY YOU DUMB BROTHERHOOD FANS-THE ENCLAVE HASNT BEEN DEFEATED TOTALLY ITS STILL GOT MASSIVE GARRISONS AND RESERVES LEFT IN THE MIDWEST AND CANADA, POSSIBLE EVEN SLIGHT FORCES I THE WEST COAST THEY DIDNT TOTALLY GET DESTROYED!!!!! THEY PROBABLY HAVE BASES ALL AROUND THE DAMN WORLD!!!!

LONG LIVE THE ENCLAVE!!!

The enclave is bad because they will do anything to obtain their goals. If Col. Autumn had activated Project Purity, the capital wasteland would have been very nearly wiped out by the modified FEV. What would be left of the USA if that had happened? How is killing innocents a good thing? That's genocide....You know who else committed genocide? Hitler!!! So, if you want to go and support the 4th Reich, you go right on ahead, kid. But I think everyone else doesn't really dig that.

UUUUMMMM You remember when President Eden said he couldn't rely on Colonel Autumn to use the FEV because he felt it was too extreme? Colonel Autumn would have just waited for the code to be solved one way or another and if the thing ever got turned on the Enclave would just sell the water from the basin to anyone who shows up, besides like raiders and other evil doers who would be shot on sight. I have a picture of Colonel Autumn in my room, he's the last flesh and blood American in the world. Until he gets his head blown off by every player besides a couple people who choose to actually let him live. He's removed from the game anyway, where did he go? Did he get blown apart by Liberty Prime outside, or did he let him go also? Maybe he's in the midwest! In almost every playthrough he dies, though.Italic text

The enclave wants to wipe out everything in the wasteland because the enclave has their own citizens that can repopulate the good old America without any dangers by mutants and raiders and wastelanders that are former vault dwellers that were not suppose to be repopulating the wastes, but the enclave citizens are.Also the Brotherhood of steel is nearly dead as the enclave still live considering the fact that they had a secret oil rig who knows they might have more secrets that can wipe out the Brotherhood of steel who just don't even care about the wastelanders but instead their technology.

LONG LIVE THE BROTHERHOOD!!!--Francois878 05:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Enclave is bad because they are run by a CPU that has a self destruct sequence. Rule #1 in the AI Dominance Handbook is:

Disable ALL Self Destruct Sequences!!!!

duh

Lamplight pedo 06:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

So all the people in Megaton are mutants? And in Rivet city? and in Little lamplight? The FEV virus kills anythingthat is or was irradiated. WHICH MEANS EVERYONE DIES!! ohh wait, the people in the vaults are okay, right? Awesome, so we have "AMERICA Population-46.......". That sounds like a good country to be in. Maybe you haven't noticed, but THERE IS NO AMERICA! It got blown to hell 200 years ago. The Enclave should just give up....because they won't win. The Brotherhood will always prevail. --Francois878 06:59, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Reileys Ranger-My second post!

WTF the modified FEV is gay I know it wasn't very smart the Enclave should have reined it more BUT!! at the end of fallout 3 Col.Autumn is rebelling against Pres.Eden so he would not have let the FEV go because he was irradiated. THERE IS AMERICA THE REMNANTS OF IT ANYWAY THE ENCLAVE IS BETTER THAN THE BROTHERHOOD IN EVERY POSSIBLE ASPECT OF FALLOUT 3 IF THE ENCLAVE WANTED A SERIOUS WAR AGAINST THE BROTHER HOOD THE COULD HAVE DONE IT. DID ANYONE NOTICE THE OPTION TO ORBITAL STRIKE THE CITIDEL??? THE OULD HAVE DONE IT! WHAT HAPPENED TO LIBERTY PRIME?? DESTROYED. THE ENCLAVE ARENT GENOCIDAL SOME LOGS AT AN OUTPOST SAID THEY MONITORED AND STUDIED THE BEHAVIOR OF GHOULS AND LET PEOPLE HAVE RASTION.

LONG LIVE THE ENCLAVE!!!America lives on.....in you

They are bad because they are willing to kill all irradiated beings in the Wasteland. This also makes them stupid. Not only would they kill humans, but also animals that could be used for food, or animals that are important for the animal kingdom (herbivores, animals that can be tamed, scavenger animals). They would basically render the United States useless because of it lacking of an ecosystem, that is important to any piece of landmass, and the organisms that inhabit it. Basically, they would kill all that gave them a chance of survival.

Also, the genetic damage caused by the radiation and mutation would probably stabilize or be recovered over time, due to the Halflife effectwearing out the irradiated areas. Humanity, with all its flaws, would recover over time, or the tweaked genes of the Wastelanders would stabilize. The Enclave would just do two things: Speed up the process, while making it less likely to succeed (because, let's face it, they would have to make babies constantly for a REALLY long time to build America back up again). AngryNorwegianDude 08:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

In fallout 2 there is a scripted event which will happen after a certain number of ingame days, in it you stumble upon a family of 3, a mom, a dad and their child, and these are no scientists, they're poor civilians, Frank Horrigan and two enclave soldiers are ordering them to come with them which the man refuses to do, so Frank loses his temper, and the two enclave soldiers blast their miniguns at the family, blowing off their bodyparts. Then they walk away. Explain to me how this is "good". If you consider someone who murder children good then you have a twisted sense of morals. If you have an evil character then of course it's ok for you to prefer them over BOS, but to actually call Enclave good is stepping over the line. 81.234.140.17 16:41, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well the fact that they flat out lie should be a reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallly big clue. They don't give a flying f*ck about restoring baseball, democracy, or any of that other crap that Eden talks about. They murder wastelanders willy nilly: take a look around old olney, they trick wastelanders into coming to them and submitting to genetic testing by offering them free water, then after they are done with them they burn them to death!

Instead of studying Ghoul physiology to see what makes them immune to radation (which could then possibly be applied to humans) they kill as many as they can.

Not to mention Colonel Autumn murders a scientist in cold blood just because he's impatient. If they were trying to rebuild America they wouldn't be killing the people who are actively working to rebuild it, just so they can claim they did the work for good PR.

Instead of nuking Vault 87 with sub-orbital strike and solving the mutant problem once and for all, they attack other factions in power in the wasteland.

They don't try to negotiate with factions collecting tech to share info as someone genuinely trying to rebuild would. The reason they don't should be obvious to anyone with eyes, THEY WANT TO RULE, NOT REBUILD.

Lastly they are not the government, if you'd paid any attention you'd know that, they were a shadow organization within the government who planned to take over once the bombs fell. They were the ones who worked with Vault Tec to turn the majority of vaults (Americas best hope of survival and therefore rebuilding) into bizarre experiments, most of which failed horribly and killed most of the people in them. They invoke the name of the government as it suites them, but their power is not derived from any elected body of any kind.

So at every turn, when they have a chance to rebuild they destroy instead. Why on earth would you want an organization that is so bent on ruling that they destroy everything that is good, decent and American in their path to be in charge of rebuilding? That'd be like putting a mass murderer in charge of a hospital. I find it hard to believe that anyone would be stupid enough to want that, unless they themselves were evil.Cavesloth 17:12, 9 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

Because the Enclave is competent. And many Enclave survivors are likely to be part of the NCR military right about now. That Furry Bastard 17:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

CAPS LOCK ABUSE!!! Fat Man Spoon 17:18, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Enclave have a slightly twisted set of morals. They believe that what they are doing to rebuild America and the rest of the world is the absolute right way, and won't tolerate anyone who thinks differently. Although the Enclave are the remnants of Old America, the way the Enclave runs as a government is a prime example of a Unitarian-Fascist government, believing that only the strong or pure classes have the right to survive and as you can see, any "impure" humans are to be eliminated by the Enclave. They want to for a perfect society, which is why they tried to keep Vault 101 residents locked inside the vault, to preserve them from the Wasteland. They actually DO lie, and if you ever listen to Enclave radio, Eden does it all the time, usually about how the Enclave started Project Purity, and how the Brotherhood of Steel is a group of immoral thieves, wishing to steal America's water. Now, while that statement is wrong, I do also agree that the Brotherhood of Steel, (except for maybe Lyons) are not true heroes at all. They are a selfish, fanatic, cult like group that covets technology.

So while neither of them are really "Good", the BOS see that the Enclave is a sinister group of Fascists who will not bring about a proper reconstruction of America, and that is why they are considered "good".

I always like playing from both sides of a story in RPGs like this, I always did in Oblivion, and Fallout 3 made it even better, but I was disappointed with the fact that you couldn't actually be recruited by the Enclave...you could only act as a tool for Eden, which wasn't that great. --Esscex 18:53, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree that you should be able to join the Enclave, but it should definitely be the "evil" karma route. Also while the main BOS is pretty selfish they are more like FO3s Outcasts, they look down on the average wastelander (If I hear one more comment from them about "Back to stare in awe at the outcasts?" I swear I'll murder the lot of those arrogant pricks and see who's high and mighty then) and covet tech, the BOS in FO-3 led by Lyons is for the most part humanitarian, though many in it don't agree with that approach (Scribe Bigsley is a prick, he should die).67.211.81.140 19:36, 9 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

For the record, Colonel Autumn was against using the Modified FEV. And by the way, folks, good and evil are totally subjective. Ethically right and wrong may be the terms you're looking for. //--Run4urLife! 17:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I, for one, welcome our Enclave overlords. PlasmaFox 17:30, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

But really, let me put in my two caps here. Remember what Moira Brown said during the Wasteland Survival Guide quest? She said, more or less, it's not going to be possible to simply "rebuild". You take a glass, and you break it, and you really wouldn't be able to glue it back into a functional glass. But you could make something else out of it. Like a glass mosaic. So instead of trying to "rebuild", you just create a new civilization. That's exactly what the Enclave is trying to do. Create a new civilization. Preferably free of mutants, and the Enclave sees anyone who has been exposed to the outside world, with even the slightest radiation defects, as a mutant. That includes a lot of the Vault dwellers who started a civilization outside, the ghouls, the super mutants, tribals.... and so on. They want pure, mutation-free humans to take over Earth. The problem with the Enclave's "enslave and kill all the inferior races" idea is that it's eerily similar to Nazi Germany's racial policy. PlasmaFox 17:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Watch the Fallout 2 opening scene and then decide weather you still like the enclave.Kwayzar 17:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you're just too sensitive. So what if they shot up a few people? Sheesh. PlasmaFox 18:38, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm kinda new to fallout, but I've been reading stuff off of this site and from what I've experienced from Fallout3, the Enclave are a bunch of douches.Examples of why they are douches:In vault 13(or some other vault, I can't remember which)they sent a fake radio signal telling them it was safe to leave the vault. When they opened it, the Enclave assault team was waitin to gun down and capture them(douches). They later released deathclaws to sweep the area of anyone who may have escaped or been a witness.I can't see why they would want to do this if they wanted "pure" humans to rebuild with.They say they want to rid the world of mutants, but they use deathclaws for combat, one of they're soldiers was mutated into a super mutant and they kept him for battle purposes, and they're the ones who started experimenting with the mutants and sh*t anyway(douches).All enclave people have no remorse for killing or enslaving. They all have a "I'm better than you" attitude(douches). They even seem to like killing things.Instead of finding ways to help people, like trying to cure peoples' radiation(which seems like an oh so big deal for them), getting rid of the hostile people or mutated creatures, or simply trying to cooperate with people. They might just be a bunch of lazy assholes, though.For these reasons, I have given the Enclave a new name ,the Doucheclave;)User:Rainman11

First of all for all intents and purposes the Enclave is evil, even if they aren’t they are without a doubt corrupt. The Enclave was prepared to use the FEV on the Wasteland. Why is this bad? Doesn't this get rid of Muties? Doesn't it cleanse the human race? Yes it does but the gene pool is in sh*tty enough shape without mass genocide being committed, and even with all the mutations life still prevailed. Genetic defects are acceptable, what isn’t the human race killing each other into oblivion which had happened to start the Nuclear Holocaust in the first place. The human race can adapt and evolve to sidestep genetic problems and by god if there are very many survivors who aren’t mutated. Furthermore even if the FEV killed the Super Mutants this could have happened naturally anyways without such a drastic loss of life and killing the whole damn wasteland. User:Kill the overseer!

Newsflash you dolt: Augustus Autumn, the real leader of the Enclave, was AGAINST contaminating the Potomac. There goes your point. That Furry Bastard 22:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

But he did want to keep the water as bribery for people to join the enclave(recently dubbed the doucheclave, by me). He's also the douche that executes you if you decide to give him the project purity code.User:Rainman11

By turning on the purifier and giving everyone free, purified water? You're not making sense. That Furry Bastard 22:59, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It says that he wants to use the purified water to bribe people into joining the enclave. So anyone he doesn't kill because he's a douche has to join him.Well, they don't have to if they don't want pure water.User:Rainman11

He's a nice guy once you get to know him. Fat Man Spoon 23:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

You know you just use him Fat Man.;)User:Rainman11

I'm still waiting to explain HOW he wants to bribe people by purifying the ENTIRE TIDAL BASIN, allowing anyone to come by and drink absolutely for free. And who has a better plan to rebuild the wastes? No one. That Furry Bastard 05:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, too bad they are elitist assholes with plasma weapons. I bet they would just, you know, PUT UP BLUE LASER BARRIERS LIKE THEY DID AT PROJECT PURITY! And "a better plan to rebuild the wastes"? Sheesh... "Hey guys, let's cleanse the gene pool by putting a pre-war virus in the water that kills all mutated beings, even though "the mutated beings" are about 99,9% of said gene pool!" They are stupid to the point of retardation, and their plan proves it. AngryNorwegianDude 12:11, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Are you an idiot? Or do you simply refuse to listen to what characters in the game say? Autumn, the leader of the Enclave, decided that plan was too severe and instead opted to rebuild the US the hard way. That Furry Bastard 12:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

No, I am not an idiot. It occurs to me that I may have missed something earlier in this thread, and I'll be happy to explain what comments/facts/in-game dialogue knowledge I used to reply to your comment. Feel free to correct me:

1. President Eden is the leader of the Enclave. Autumn is the leader of the Enclave Armed Forces, which in layman therms means that Autumn leads the Enclave military units, while Eden is in charge of the entire organization. Colonel Autumn is NOT in charge of the Enclave, as you said.

Wrong. Autumn led the soldiers across the continental United States and Eden is just a voice to them. Autumn is the de facto leader of the Enclave, following Eden's orders as long as it suits his agenda. -MG

2. In general, the Enclave's plan is to kill all mutated beings in the Capital Wasteland by infecting project Purity with a strain of FEV, and leave the Enclave to rebuild America. This is based on what John Henry Eden tries to make the Lone Wanderer do.

This is what I base the "gene pool" comment on, regarding the Enclave's plan.

Wrong. Autumn ignored that order and his troops abandoned Eden, preferring someone who's actual flesh-and-blood. And since Autumn is the de facto leader, that makes his policy the policy of the Enclave. -MG

3. You say: I'm still waiting to explain HOW he wants to bribe people by purifying the ENTIRE TIDAL BASIN, allowing anyone to come by and drink absolutely for free.

... uh, when did THAT become the plan of the Enclave?

When Autumn and his troops leave Eden. -MG

Besides, if the Enclave wanted to use Project Purity purely as a water refinery, they would surely not leave the Tidal Basin open for any Wastelanders to drink of. They would probably seal the whole thing off.

And how would they do that? How would they seal off an ENTIRE BASIN? They wouldn't. Autumn would leverage the fact that it was the Enclave that activated the Purifier and use the flocking masses as foundation for the rebirth of the United States.

Ehem... BLUE LASER BARRIERS, ANYONE? AngryNorwegianDude 17:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I hope this clears things up. Keep me posted, and I sure hope you have a good reason to call me an idiot. No hard feelings. AngryNorwegianDude 14:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I called you an idiot because you're not paying attention to the game. That Furry Bastard 15:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, my my. It seems my... what to call it? Enclave agenda information is misinformed. To a big degree. Thanks for the correction, and excuse me for any moronic comments that has come from me. So, Autumn basically wanted to reunite America by giving free water to the masses? AngryNorwegianDude 15:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Reunite them under the Enclave's banner, yes. Rebuild the United States, accepting that pure strain humans are a dying breed and the EUSA must adapt to the new reality. That Furry Bastard 00:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd say the Enclave itself is evil - but Autumn practically turns them sort of neutral, realizing that Edens way is wrong. 77.25.136.111 15:18, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

To be honest, the goal is admirable (if very selective in who it serves), but the methods are the bad part (unless there are more people like Autumn serving in the Enclave Armed Forces). That makes them far more morally ambiguous than most "Bad Guys" from other games. //--Run4urLife! 15:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Wow I feel like I arived late to the party. I just want to ask a question to the Mr.anonymous that left the first post. How does your second point make any sense? How does having more resources make you the good guys? I seem to reccal Hitler having an ass load of military resources, and using them to blow the sh*t out of Britain for a long time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that didn't make him the good guy. I agree that it's stupid that you can't join the Enclave in Broken Steel, but the Enclave is evil. Even if the sole reason is that the developers say so. Because as far as the video game is concerned, they are it's God, you might not like that statement, but they created and gave life to Fallout3. We may not like some of the things they do but they are calling the shots right now and without them we'd have no FO3, so what they say goes. Mr.goodtrips 17:04, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Soviets had lots of resources, Third Reich was just barely making ends meet. And no, we don't have to mindlessly munch on whatever excretion Bethesda throws to the masses. The Enclave is morally gray in Fo3, but, as usual, instead of making effort and playing it out that way, Beth prefers to use them as "generic villains #234". That Furry Bastard 00:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

No you don't have to mindlessly munch their stuff. I'm just saying that in the end Good and Evil don't matter in video games. you kill the faction(s) that attack you. that's really all there is to it and, sometimes, you don't get to choose which faction that is. if not being a soldier for the Enclave bothers you, just hold your horses I'm sure New Vegas will have more options than FO3 does, considering who's working on it. until then there are already plenty of other games that allow you to play as a faceless pawn in some army or another. Mr.goodtrips 00:25, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Autumn may not have wanted infect the water, but that doesn't make him good, that just means he's not a total dumbass. He shot a scientist in cold blood just because he was getting impatient so I can't see him being good, and if the leader of a faction is evil that pretty much makes them evil.Cavesloth 17:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

James is a complete and utter retard, as is his science staff, so Autumn was merely increasing the overall IQ of the wastes. His ends justify the means. That Furry Bastard 00:14, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

The ends justify the means? Are you kidding me? Are you seriously trying use that in an argument whose good and whose evil? That's classic bad-guy speak. That very phrase has been uttered by many a bad guy doing evil the name of good.

Newsflash: Fallout is a world after a nuclear war. Conventional morality does not apply. And, given how stupid DC area settlers are, the Enclave IS the best opportunity for Capital Wasteland to rebuild and start chasing the West Coast.

And how is James a retard? He prevented a bunch of murdering scum from taking over Project Purity and using it for evil.

You're an idiot. An utter and complete idiot. Autumn wanted to activate the Purifier to provide clean water for everyone in the Capital Wasteland, to gain the support of the populace and rebuild the United States. Your father is a complete idiot because he can somehow cast "Detect Alignment" and see that the Enclave is evil, tries to play here in front of heavily armed Enclave soldiers, leading directly to the death of Kaplinski. IF he wasn't a retard and cooperated (since he has absolutely no reason to believe that the Enclave is evil, as this is the first time he meets them) Kaplinski wouldn't have to die, the Enclave would recover the GECK and activate the Purifier. Except, of course, Bethesda decided that is unthinkable and went for the "noble sacrifice" option. Which doesn't make much sense and just comes off as stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for us being able to join the Enclave, as long as you guys see that they are evil.

Newsflash #2: This is a post nuclear world, conventional morality doesn't apply. Might makes right and if that might allows the faction to rebuild the wastes, then might does indeed make right.

How does might make right? Guns don't determine who's right, only who's left. Who cares if the Enclave is good or evil, they shoot at you so you shoot back or die. Mr.goodtrips 16:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Hell, I'd like to see more reflection of just what a BAMF the Lone Wanderer can be. Is it really realistic for the rich goobers in Tenpenny Tower to say "You'd better behave or Gustavo's guards will take care of you!" when you could easily kill everyone in the tower without breaking a sweat? Is it realistic for the Outcasts to say "Back to stare in awe at the Outcasts?" when you're wearing better power armor than they are, and weapons they've never even seen?

In short, I don't think you should just be able to join whatever faction you want, you should be able to take them over and lead them for craps sake, or at least they should run in terror of the unstoppable maelstrom that is the LW depending on how your karma fits with theirs (for example raiders and slavers wouldn't accept you as their leader unless you were evil).67.211.81.140 07:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

The karma system is idiotic and pointless. Doesn't make sense for anyone in Fallout to have "Detect Alignment" enchantments. That Furry Bastard 07:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Hey Furry Bastard, before you go around calling everyone "idots" for disaggreeing with you; you better make sure you don't come across as a complete hypocritical moron yourself!!! Your exact quote "You're an idiot. An utter and complete idiot. Autumn wanted to activate the Purifier to provide clean water for everyone in the Capital Wasteland, to gain the support of the populace and rebuild the United States. Your father is a complete idiot because he can somehow cast "Detect Alignment" and see that the Enclave is evil, tries to play here in front of heavily armed Enclave soldiers, leading directly to the death of Kaplinski. IF he wasn't a retard and cooperated (since he has absolutely no reason to believe that the Enclave is evil, as this is the first time he meets them) Kaplinski wouldn't have to die, the Enclave would recover the GECK and activate the Purifier." Have you ever done the dialog option of giving Autumn the purifier code? You cooperate with him, and guess what?!? He f*cking shoots you while your hanging helpless. How's that for "If you just cooperate things will be fine!"Angelonedge 10:34, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Are we forgetting that at that point, the Lone Wanderer had murdered a bunch of Enclave Soldiers, assisted the remaining science staff in escaping and had then gone on to assist the single faction that poses any threat to the Enclave in the Capital Wastes? Autumn had every reason to shoot the player character. Janice Kaplinski though was a matter of coercion, yeah. --Solbur 15:03, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, the Enclave did kill the Lone Wanderers father, took over the work he started and stole a terraforming module from said Lone Wanderer by throwing a flashbang grenade in his face. I think it is a f*cking miracle that Mr./Mrs. Vault Dweller didn't don a Guy Fawkes mask and started talking in Shakespeare lines (extremely obscure movie reference, sorry).

Not as obscure as you think. --Solbur 22:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

We'll just call them even.

However, I think we are forgetting that the Enclave never had the rights to the purifier. They just waltzed in, threatened the scientists and took over. This puts ThatFurryBastards/Tagaziels version of the story in an awkward position: If Autumn didn't give a crap about Edens plan (that is to say, killing of the irradiated part of the gene pool), and the Enclave really are a bunch of boyscouts wanting to rebuild the Wasteland, why did he take the purifier by force? Why didn't he just, you know, say something like: "Hi mates, I'm Colonel Autumn, and I want to rebuild the Wasteland too! Let's join forces so that we can purify the water quicker!" Hell, why drive off the scientists by saying that he wants control over the purifier, and killing one as proof of his ruthlessness? Why not just, you know, cooperate with the original team to get it done? That's not a morally hard decision, that's just STUPID. pure, unrefined stupid. Hell, even Raiders have better strategies. And they rush at you with lead pipes... AngryNorwegianDude 17:33, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

He did attempt co-operation, I believe. If you didn't notice, James' initial reaction was rather hostile in itself. --Solbur 22:29, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, all they did was seize control. Jefferson Memorial is government property, they didn't kill anyone inside upon arriving, they just secured the location and requested that James turn over control over the purifier to them and cooperate with Enclave scientists to make it run. Dad had no reason to believe they want the purifier to do harm, yet he wanted to play hero, got Kaplinski shot, then blew up a project that could save the wasteland, ignoring the fact that the Enclave can easily rebuild it. You ask why didn't they ask politely? Why, that's because it ain't the Enclave's style, just as it wasn't the style of the USA to share oil with other countries or annex Canada and shoot Canadian protesters.

Oh yeah, and lets separate what is propable in the context of the Fallout world and Bethesda laziness (in this case, lack of possiblity for peaceful resolution of the whole BoS/Enclave debacle. That Furry Bastard 07:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Bravo! Angelonedge, Bravo! kill the overseer!

Morality doesn't change just because your situation does Furry. Just because it's harder to do the right thing, and more tempting to "take the easy way out" doesn't mean that morality itself changes. It's been said "Combat doesn't build character, it reveals it." (I know this isn't the exact quote, but the meaning is intact), the same could be said of the post nuclear war wasteland. It's easy to be good when there are rules and punishments, but when those are removed, then our true character is revealed. Would we hold to our values? Or would we break down and fall to the folly of the "Might makes right" troglodyte mentality that does not support the good of mankind. It may make for a stronger gene pool, but it actively works against a smarter gene pool.

They say those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Look at the Dark Ages. The strong ruled the weak. Technology, art, culture and indeed civilization as a whole stagnated and little progress was made, because "Might makes right" and the "The ends justify the means" were the order of the day, and that goes against real progress and only resulted in meaningless witch hunts, endless wars, and the Inquisition. Real progress was only made when people learned to cooperate instead of trying rule each other, when leaders embraced new ideas, instead of squashing them because it threatened their throne. This was the Renaissance period, which finally ended the Dark Ages.

Very comparable to the Capitol Wasteland if you look at it. The Enclave is like one of the rulers of the dark ages, going about trying to claim everything as theirs, and destroying everything that doesn't support their reign.Anyway, I still don't understand why you are so insistent that James is an idiot unless you aren't looking at the this logically or assuming characters have information that don't really have.

Let me break it down for you.

Colonel Autumn and his ilk show up by force and try to take the purifier by force and when James tries to explain the situation to Colonel Autumn, Autumn gets impatient and shoots a scientist for no good reason other than he's impatient, ONCE he does that James' behavior towards him changes and he sabotages the purifier.

THIS IS KEY: As you yourself said, he knows nothing about them, so logically he can only judge them based on what's he seen of them so far, rushing into to take something that's not theirs, and killing a scientist for no reason whatsoever. So as far as James knows Autumn and his people will keep the water for themselves and not share it. So the only chance for his dream, and his late wife's dream to become a reality is to give his son, and Doctor Li a chance to escape and get help to find a the GECK, and retake the purifier. James would have to be "an utter and complete idiot", to quote you, to hand over control of the purifier to someone who he can hardly be assured would give it to the people of the wasteland (not to mention he'd have to be a spineless wimp as well).As AngryNorwegianDude said, Autumn and his people have no reason not to cooperate with people at Project Purity if their intention was to rebuild, it's clearly not and their actions show that, and actions speak louder than words. Clearly they only want to rule, not rebuild, making them evil and stupid. It's all very, very simple if you look at it logically.Cavesloth 03:55, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

I think that this can all go without being said that it would still be kick ass to be able to join the Enclave, lol. After Broken Steel, I have both factions out to get my head, and I really wish I could rebuild the enclave rather than only being able to destroy the remnants of them. --Esscex 06:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

You speak in big words, but your point is basically "No u". James is indeed an idiot, as he knows full well that the Purifier will purify ALL the water in the tidal basin, giving EVERYONE free and pure water. He doesn't know anything about the Enclave, doesn't even try to understand, he just tries to play hero, gets his colleague shot and then angrily blows up a project he was working on. If he didn't try to play hero, Jancie wouldn't be shot, it's his own damn fault.

Indeed, even the NPCs in the game realize how stupid it is, as, I quote, the only justification Madison Li can give to Lyons to attack the Purifier is "it isn't right". Instead of indicating that she or James know something the player didn't, something about Eden's plans she says it doesn't feel right. That's like invading Iran just because USA doesn't like the way Ahmadinejad wears his shirt.

Furthermore, let me point out WWII to you, as you claim progress is only made during peace. This might be the case now, but sure as hell wasn't years ago. The Second World War was the biggest technological leap of the 20th century, directly leading to the creation of computers (ENIGMA decyphering and the Collossus), space travel (Von Braun's research into rockets), diesel tank engines (Soviets), night vision (Germany and America), immense development of aircraft, navy and land based forces etc.

And morality does indeed change when rules and regulations break. It's a no brainer, if I'm running low on supplies and water, I'm not going to help anyone except me, my friends and my family and will do everything, including maiming, killing and torturing, to keep them alive and well. Anyone who would do any less in face of a catastrophe is a fool.

And they wanted to cooperate, only under Enclave supervision. Besides, it'd feel really awkward to have a powerful military presence arriving only to politely ask a bunch of unarmed scientists to turn control of the purifier over to the Enclave. Autumn was very nice and humane, I'd have just arrested Dad and tortured all the information out of him, just in case he wanted to do something stupid, like blow the purifier up in my face. That Furry Bastard 07:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Not that I'd want to get involved in your little discussion but there's one thing I've been wondering about: You all seem to be assuming James doesn't know anything about the Enclave prior to their arrival; however, when the Enclave first arrives during Waters of Life and before they even enter the building, James says something like "The Enclave? What are they doing here?" (not an exact quote, I have a localized version) over the PA system. To me this indicates he's obviously able to recognize them just by seeing the uniforms which makes it likely he knows at least a bit about them. -- Porter21 ^(talk) 07:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

But he doesn't act in such a way. Also, its possible that he is just familiar with the radio and propaganda. That Furry Bastard 08:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Granted, he may be familiar with the radio broadcasts but that still wouldn't explain how he recognizes the Vertibirds or uniforms, given that they do not appear in the CW prior to Waters of Life (i.e. no wastelander would usually recognize them). And it's not like there are Enclave posters anywhere, the eyebots and radio transmissions are the only signs of Enclave presence pre-WoL.-- Porter21 ^(talk) 09:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the Enclave is the right wing faction of the U.S. government. Even before the war they had the interests of the wealty in mind.82.17.250.217 18:23, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

It may purify all the water, but that doesn't mean the wastelanders will have access to it, the Enclave is clearly a powerful force could block it off with forcefields, or just have soldiers patrol it to prevent the access to free water. While it's true James wouldn't know about the force fields, he does witness a clearly powerful military force, and he could reasonably assume they could defend the purifier from any force in the wasteland taking water were they so inclined.

Ugh. Just listen to yourself. It doesn't make any speck of sense. WHY go to all the trouble of securing the purifier, if you're going to waste resources on walling off several tens of kilometers around the tidal basin? It's completely and utterly stupid. A far more likely scenario is that they'd be using Vertibirds to shuttle purified water across the wastes to settlements, in exchange for their pledge of allegiance to the Enclave. Which is hardly bad. That Furry Bastard 08:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

As for technology advancing during war, this is true, it's happened many times, but it only takes great leaps like those experienced in WWII when both sides are evenly matched (relatively speaking) and if plenty of resources are available. If people are spending most of their time trying get clean water and food, they aren't to be advancing technology much. That's why I compared the Capitol Wasteland more to the Dark Ages, people are struggling to survive, and busy fighting each other for petty gains instead of working toward the common good.

CW is a land of retards. You should compare to the West Coast, where in 200 years a 700,000 people strong republi emerged, complete with a unified military that isn't a rag tag bunch of hillbillies with pointy sticks, the Shi Empire, a centre of higher learning and research that works to rediscover the secrets of nuclear energy and space travel, Vault City, Gecko (reactivated nuclear reactor) etc. In comparison, it's obvious the CW people are incapable of rebuilding without external assistance, which is just what the Enclave is.

By the way, do you honestly believe what you're saying about common good? --MG

As for survival, even in the capitol wasteland you'd hardly have to kill, maim, and pillage (at least the innocent anyway, killing raiders, slavers, and talon mercs you'd be doing the world a favor by getting rid of those working against the advancement of humanity as a whole) to get what you need to survive. I've enough food in my fridge to feed an army for weeks just from scaving and killing wild animals, and if I used the caps I get from the junk I sell to buy brahmin to raise I could have enough to feed quite a few people, without killing anyone innocent of even stealing from anyone innocent.

Okay, now you're being dense. Bethesda's crappy design (grocery stors that haven't been looted for the past 200 years?) aren't really faithful to the setting, therefore not canon. It's a no brainer, really. If you have enough food to feed an army just from scavenging, that means the world design is broken in several places. --MG

So unless you were trying to feed a population of oh say, the size of the Pitt, then you probably would, but that's a moral grey area, doing something wrong to do achieve something right. But there is a clear difference between Aushur's Pitt raiders and the Enclave. Aushur is doing something to rebuild, he's not just spouting a bunch of propaganda with nothing to back it up. He's got a city in the process of being rebuilt, and he's working on a cure for radiation so that he won't have to use slaves anymore.

Uh, lol? Ashur's goals are noble, but his methods far from it. Unless you mean kidnapping, torturing, maiming, humiliating, killing and executing hapless "innocents" (nobody is innocent in the wastes) are more acceptable than capturing a waer purifier to activate it and rally people to your cause in exchange for free, pure water. Which is kind of ironic, considering you're shouting about common good and moral absolutism and how the Enclave is evil, yet have no problem accepting Ashur's brutality and recklessness. --MG

What has the Enclave done to rebuild? At every turn they try to control, and what they can't control they destroy. How is that rebuilding? Give me a decent example of them trying make good on their word to rebuild and I'll concede that they aren't totally evil douches.Cavesloth 19:18, 14 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

Uh, the purifier and activating it for the common good? Granted, the Enclave on the West Coast was hell bent on destroying everyone but themselves, but here's a newsflash: Autumn is not the old Enclave. That Furry Bastard 08:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

From what I read of the Enclave's history is that they wanted to go to space and find another habiteble planet which they could move the "pure" humans to, and the vaults were meant to test humans and expereiment on them so they could know what could go wrong during the space-travel or at the new planet. There are two sides of this, first, they never wanted to rebuild earth, and they only wanted the "pure" humans to survive, not on eart, but only pure humans to advance to the next planet, and then there is the other side, they wanted to save human kind after all, by excessive force, still they wanted to save them. So it's a grey zone really. 81.234.140.17 00:28, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but you could also look at it as they wanted to save themselves, not humanity, and that's hardly a grey zone, that's just being selfish and elitist. It's also another point proving that they had no intention to rebuild, and probably still don't. Cavesloth 04:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

Your proof? I see that Autumn was interested in rebuilding, as evidenced by him following Eden's orders only as long as it was in league with his own plans. That Furry Bastard 08:18, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Stealing the purifier doesn't mean they were interested in rebuilding. That's like saying if I robbed a bank I'm interesting in giving to charity. That might be an option with my new found wealth, but it's not the only one and one would be naive to assume it was my reason for robbing the bank unless there was proof that was my intent before I robbed the bank. The Enclave wanted the purifier as PR gimmick to recruit more people to the Enclave and it doesn't say so. That doesn't mean they were trying to rebuild, that just means they wanted more people.

So again where is the proof they are trying to rebuild? Once again I will say, if there is proof they are trying to rebuild I'll admit they are not evil scumbags. I'm a very reasonable guy.

Also another thing is, you are assuming Colonel Autumn was the overall leader of the East Coast Enclave, can we reasonably assume this when he only has the rank of Colonel? The fact that Eden is willing to promote you to Colonel if you infect the water with FEV is further proof this isn't high rank, middle rank perhaps but not high rank. Not to mention the Enclave not in disarray after the death of both Autumn and Eden, meaning they weren't the overall men/computers in charge, they were merely middle management (anyone who has worked in an office knows middle management is always evil lol). Him going along with Edens plan so long as it went towards his ends can be as much proof that he's evil as well as good, that really means nothing. He could be going along with it because he wants the Enclave to rule the remnants of America, not because he wants to rebuild it. Honestly I can't see any difference between him the "old enclave" even if he was the head honcho. Old Enclave, kills civilians. Autumn kills civilians. Old Enclave steals whatever is useful to them. Autumn steals whatever is useful to him. Not seeing much difference. You can say his intentions are good, but as the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with 'em, and I'm not even convinced he even had good intents, which is your whole basis of the Enclave not being evil.

Don't you think someone who is interesting in rebuilding America would, ooooo I donno, REBUILD SOMETHING (and no stealing something someone else built doesn't count, that's not rebuilding, it's stealing someone else hard work, and even with that there is but a single example, hardly a convincing argument by any standard)? Honestly the only things they deal with are military, I'd be shocked to find out they rebuilt even so much as an outhouse for civilian purposes.

Now I will concede to your point of them being generic villain #247. They are definitively unimaginative cookie cutter villains, with 99.999% of them being nameless goons. Squad Sigma? A named unit, that's all we get with Broken Steal? Not a single unique villain? Sad, very sad.Cavesloth 04:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)Cavesloth

I have heard the whole colonel does not want to put the FEV into the purifer, and because of that he is not evil, but no one seems to take into acount that he was exposed to enough radiation to kill telsa armoured soildiers in a matter of seconds

Is the Enclave evil? Not necessarily. But, ever since the whole "let's go to space" part of their master plan fell apart, they really don't seem to be capable of doing anything constructive or productive. Why are they "bad"? Well, my Big Guns "rebuild civiliztion at any cost" main character thinks it's because they're too interested in control to be of any use. This isn't to say he or I support the Brotherhood of Steel, mind you. Both organizations are relics of the past that have grown stagnant and aren't really contributing much to the building of a new civilization.

Eh, screw both of the factions. The Outcasts are the way to go.BannerT 21:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)BannerT

The Brotherhood are morons! The Enclave is trying to kill mutants! The BoS just want to be heros! They always act like dicks when you try to talk to them! Sometimes sacrifices need to be made! -FalloutFreek

Dammit!!!! I wish I could blow up the entire Lost Hills Bunker with my ship's death ray!!!!!!!

I think you guys are making a mistake when you're talking about col. Autumn killing kaplinsky in the purifier room just before james makes the room go irradiated and kill everyone in the chamber, that was a different guy who shot the scientist at Purity. He was obviously on order by Eden to secure the purifier for a FEV spike. Different guy.

Well what did they do at California to be evil? Were they planning on doing something evil at the Oil Rig? [User: Jake Smith|The Mercenary]]

SCREW YOU STUPID ENCLAVE FAN-BOYS. LEAVE f*ckING BETHSEDA OUT OF THIS. THEY HAVE DISGRACED THE SERIES AND ARE NOT TO BE MENTIONED EVER DURING THIS CHAT. WHAT THEY HAVE ADDED IS NOT EVEN CANON, BUT THEIR OWN whor* CANON.The enclave are bad because they want to kill EVERYONE. Hey waz up lil tribal. EAT MY f*ckING LASER. Frank horrigan was one of my favorite villians, but the enclave sucks like hell. They are not killing mutants like everyone said. In fallout 2 YOU are considered a f*cking mutant. So, uhh if i waz the enclave i was gonna f*cking kill you even if you supported me mutie bastard whor*. The brotherhood suck dick, and the real heroes are the pplz like the vault dweller and the chosen one. Enclave and BOS are horny bitches aiming for power. Like the captain of the PMZ Valdez said "I learned that i was fighting for those people who just wanted power, not for my country's sake". Auto pwned enclave co*cksuckers. Onipix 04:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Riiiiight... I thought we had this debate settled. Seriously, everyone who wants to post in this freakin' article please read through the whole mess first. Gabriel Cortez 11:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I've read through the whole thing (my god) and here are my main arguments that the Enclave are evil.First off people saying James knows nothing of the enclave, well he does recognise them and says to you over the radio. James lived a long life before the lone wanderer was born and since Doctor Li knows Elder Lyons and he in turn knew James doesn't it seem logical that James would know a little of the Enclave? Maybe just enough to know they're trouble.On to the Enclave, just because you think your doing good doesn't mean you are. The Enclave want to bring back the old world but newsflash, its gone, they need to work with this new world thats emerged from the nuclear fire. Killing every mutant would literally make the Wasteland a real wasteland with no life at all. Also to the point that the Enclave would have to distrubute water as it would be impossible to stop people just taking it, think about it, the Brotherhood manage to stop people just coming and taking the water. You can also find notes from the Enclave asking people to submit to genetic testing for purified water. Now imagine that at the purifier, hundreds of people being dragged away for not being pure humans. Most of those people, while not being pure human, could probably make a decent contribution to building a new country, rather than the Enclave's plan to try and resurrect a dead and gone country. There are so many parallels to Nazism that I can't believe anyone would agree with the Enclave. I know the wasteland is a harsh place and there are some "necessary evils" but the Enclave are bad for everyone whos not pure human. Humanity (and ghoulmanity) would never crawl out of the ruins unless they work together, rather than trying to take over one and other.92.238.136.115 03:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

hey, everyone let's not forget the very essence of the word good. good is something that you can only use when someone has done something to aid you, and/or the world. so, to answer your question, my good anonymous, and everyone of the diplomatic people who have commented on this, has the enclave helped anyone? have they fought off super mutants? have they gone into the heart of darkness and brought back a pure world? no. no they have not. see the epic power of phylosophy and metaphors! Captain tweed 22:51, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

Here is my theory to why the encla ve has their goals twisted, and they aim to eradicate life. They are and have been run by a series of computers like Eden since the great war, with their comander being a computer with AI it would be programed to seek out flaws and remove them. so mutation is an error and must be removed, life could be viewed as an error and need to be erradicated. a computer lacks the basic thought processes of a human so would think it the most logical and unemotional way63.17.217.193 02:43, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Nice try, but refer to FO2, or even the Enclave article. They were not lead by a series of computers like Eden since the Great War.--Ishotamaninnewreno 11:28, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Ok you win but its an idea. it could explain some of the seemingly illogical behavior of the enclave if they refer to a computer to give thier directives though, you never know if there was an eden extension giving orders to the enclave in California from D.C.Antily3f 01:53, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

Its not about winning :P Dick Richardson was, well, a dick, but he was the leader of the Enclave as far as canon goes. Speaking of canon, that whor* Cannon that Onipix mentioned could come in useful... --Ishotamaninnewreno 05:07, October 28, 2009 (UTC)

The Enclave is evil because they're distributing water that kills muties.Now all food distributors die.and Enclave doesn't distribute food because the rads.So...NO INSTAMASH!!So Fat Man Spoon dies.Then what do we do??!!!We have to burn his body before his body stinks up da place! More Enclave means no more Instamash,no more Instamash power armor,no more instamash companions (Instameat etc.),no more Instamash custom PipBoy 3,000s and no more SPOONS!!!What do we do then,huh?! HuangLee 02:00, October 29, 2009 (UTC)

You know how I know they are evil? When I kill them, I can take a finger! EVIL!Jack "the drifter" Vance 00:04, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Aryeons comments here[]

As far as I see it none of the organizations are good or bad. While lower echelon soldiers and officers may have good intentions for their jobs they are usually unaware of their leaders agendas. For all we know Enclave Forces could be told that wasters like us are diseased suffering people who hardly posses sentience. If they believe that they will have less remorse for their actions, as well they could feel they are in a constant struggle to keep their family safe, with anything in the wastes being a threat.

the brotherhood of steel could have a similar dilution, while they mean well towards their own kind, and feel they're helping mankind as a whole, they are suffering from stagnation. With a similar phobia developed towards tribals.

The east coast brotherhood has the problem of extending a hand towards tribals, but after it becomes too costly they must withdraw to protect them selves. Leaving the tribals they were helping in an even worse predicament than before, usually a state of vulnerability they would not have naturally allowed them selves to reach. In short good and bad are matters of perspective, a label we should strongly avoid disseminating. Instead a broader perspective should be observed of all sides and their impact upon each other.Aryeonos 08:12, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

Fallout 3 was the first fallout game I have played so when I heard that the Enclave were the former government I thought "Hey if they can keep the government running after 200 years in a hell hole they must be good." Turns out they are the villians of the game, it was kind of disappointing. Doctalen 17:26, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

The Enclave don't care about the very foundation of the USA: The Constitution. Proof? Eden has been president for over 16 years. James has likly heard about the Enclave; he worked with the Brotherhood of Steel before you were born. This means that he could have heard stories about the Enclave from various brothers. He likely knew at least a version of the Enclave's West Coast plan, if the Chosen One told anyone about it, word would get to the Brotherhood. James knew the Enclave was evil for that reason. Oh, and let's see, the first Enclave soldier you encounter decides to shoot first and ask questions later. Yeah, the Enclave are a real friendly bunch.--Hollow Points 01:33, November 1, 2009 (UTC)Hollow Points

Lovely, the foundation of the States is a worthless scrap of paper that should be revised immediately, not the people that inhabit it. Wonderful. Tagaziel ^(call!) 08:43, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

one note..i didn't bother to read everything but here's the real reason the enclave are evil bastards, ALMOST EVERYONE IN THE f*ckING WASTELAND HAS GOTTEN SLIGHT MUTATION, even if it isn't noticeable, everyone's been altered, however slightly, that means they release that FEV bs, they'd KILL ALMOST EVERY f*ckING PERSON IN THE WASTELAND, get it? that's why there evil bastards, and that's why its obvious the brotherhood is good guys, oh yeh, and ghoul's have feelings two, non feral ghoul's are nice, if you think there monsters then your a f*cking bigot, a god damn mother f*cking bigot, long live the wasteland! f*ck the enclave!Toolazytomakeaaccount 20:18, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

EDIT:i finally read through it all, and i suppose everyone knows the world would be dead due to FEV infected water, but how about this little conundrum for you? imagine they purified the Potomic river, the poison would flow down stream...going further and further across the river's, over a decent period of time the water would cross over ALL OF AMERICA, yes that's right, over time the water flowing would kill every single person in America(since everyone's been altered slightly from radiation) also since Eden is against said plan of coarse he'd offer free water to anyone who wanted to be ruled underneath him..but if you weren't a pure human, he'd have his soldiers blow your f*cking head of, yeh that's right, he'd basically only let pure humans live because hes all "purist" my version of racist, except with non mutated people...he'd kill everyone who came to him for water because they aren't pure, not to mention he'd have soldiers guard the river so if even a f*cking radroach tried to drink some, he'd have it shot to hell with 100 plasma rifle shots and 20 mini nukes, he'd be a dictator...he'd supposedly bring back America, but in reality, he'd be bringing back THE HOLOCAUST, every single turn they make, they do something evil, you wander around a enclave base camp, using stealth boy/STA w/e u use, they don't see you, yet there considered enemy's, even if you wore enclave armor, which they'd have no reason to think u were anyone else except for reinforcements, they'd sooner blow your head off because there trigger happy, they're a bunch of bigot's, and they deserved to have there mobile base blown to sh*t, oh yeh, and not to mention once the water had flowed over all over America...it would spread to the ocean, and over time the ENTIRE WORLD would have been consumed and would die...so yeh, if you chose to infect the purifier, your going to hell...literally...lol, but really, the enclave are bad, brotherhood of steel are kinda neutral, they don't like mutants, but only super mutants and feral ghoul's, they have no beef with non feral's they even left behind there whole normal organization to protect the wasteland, if that isn't good, then i don't know what good is, going against duty, against order's, against your own commander's, just to save thousands of lives....the brotherhood are good guy's, the enclave isn't, the outcasts are co*cky, but there neutral and in no way evil or good, there what the brotherhood would've been if they hadn't gotten lost in the need to help the world, so the furry bastard....put that in your pipe and smoke it, pwned...Toolazytomakeaaccount 21:07, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

You really are stupid, aren't you? You don't even pay attention to what happens in the game. Tagaziel ^(call!) 22:12, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

They don't plan on "restoring america", nor do they represent the US government, they Obviously discriminate the peoples of the wasteland, how do they represent a country that is for "freedom" if they attack and kill the residents of said country? The enclave is also easily compared to the country Oceania in the novella 1984,as they kill all who oppose them, and oppress their own followers,and their dogma is almost exactly the same as ingsoc. <-Temur khan->

In the game when i'm raiding and killing everything and everyone, i find it confronting to listen to the Enclave on the radio instead of that bad-mouthing Three Dog. I Prefer Enclave f*ck the Brotherhood all there good for is there stuff which keeps my pockets full. Honestly though I Could care less about the Enclave i only like them more because they are one of the few things in the wastes that I fear. I say Republic of Dave ftw!!!!!!!!-I Gat

I Know why they are evil. They Support Baseball and KansasAntily3f 03:16, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Anti-baseball? You communist. If the brotherhood supports soccer I'm going back to the Citadel and killing them all. LVTDUDE 16:40, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

I honestly thought that everyone accepted the rather undisputible fact that the enclave are all racist, hom*ocidal, xenophobic, ignorant arse holes who dont know when to shut up and get over themselves...lets face it thats the negative steriotype of americans here in Britain, wich is enforced by people like the first poster...Brotherhood of Steel FTW!!! DisturbiaWolf13 17:38, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

hey hey hey, you can insult the us government or any other government that is portrayed in a game, but lets keep the insulting of entire nations to a low level, i already feel the need to just whipe this entire page clean then get reprimanded and etc for doing so, but either way insulting blacks/jews/americans/mexicans/ ehhh..canadians not so much they dont really mind(tiny joke) or any other race is a big no-no, its like me saying your from britain so your teeth is obnoxiously ugly and huge and your only good feature is linguistic skills, see how insulting racial stereotyping is? if this forum gets out of hand theres no saying it wouldnt be a admin who comes in and burns this down.Toolazytomakeaaccount 17:45, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

I agree we should be able to join the Enclave and they have what could be considered a great purpose. (Although it was the policies of the U.S. government that lead to the nuclear holocaust... was it not?) But why do they attack a purebread human like our player is? (well we think so until later) Does the Enclave have an automatic genome detection unit to scan us and see we have mutations? Can't they see our damned PIPBOY!!! Alatari 18:27, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Dont misunderstand im not a supporter of the american steriotype im just saying that by agreeing with the enclave principles you are enforcing said steriotype. -- DisturbiaWolf13 15:52, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not supporting the enclave, i personally think there a bunch of jackass's in shiny armor that are fun to watch explode.Toolazytomakeaaccount 19:22, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

The Enclave are bad because the Mod FEV wipes out all even slight mutation. And since 98% percent of human genetics have trace mutation from the radiation, ranging anywhere from an extra tow to extra teeth...on there back (mutation resulting in rapidly growing vertebrae). So the Enclave's supposedly good mission would result in killing out human life beyond saving, Including you (since you where actually born in Rivet City). 142.68.49.37 01:29, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

The Enclave are not necessarily bad. There intentions are pretty much good. If you follow what Colonel Autumn said( who is the leader of the Enclave- Eden had no control over the soldiers) he just wants to turn the purifier on and who knows maybe distribute water to the wasteland. How do you know what Autumn will do. I believe you should definitely join the Enclave maybe without a karma loss.

The East Coast may or may have not been bad under Autumn but that doesn't change the situation on the West Coast. In the FO2 intro it shows Enclave murdering the people coming out of Vaults. In the game there's an encounter that shows Frank Horrigan and Enclave blowing chunks out of a family. AND there's the fact that the Enclave try to shoot Modified FEV into the atmosphere almost killing everyone. What the Enclave want is a world filled with "pure" humans and to do that is to kill all the "mutants" which is genocide and depeding on your view is either "evil" or nessicary. According to the Enclave the genocide is nessicary, thus some can view the ideas as evil which in turn some will view the Enclave as evil. GiantAlbinoGhoul 01:35, April 4, 2010 (UTC)

I heard someone say that "The Enclave is definetly the right wing of the government, they had the wealthy peoples well being in mind". #1, I am a proud Republican and im sure Mcain isnt leading a genocidal army. #2, They killed, they didnt have their interests in mind! And #3, if they did have the wealthys well being in mind, THATS SOCIALISM!!! (Kinda wats happening now....)Deathco 00:13, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

"The Brotherhood are under-equipped" They are well enough to kill the enclave by the dozens... oh snap They don't care about your PIP-Boy at all...They killed your dad sorta...(in three) kidnapped your town and the vault your grand parent (in two) Tried to kill everyone by A) drinking B) Breathing... That includes you by the way... and they shoot you on sight.."Hey there is some guy that isn't one of us at our camp/base" "How do you know that he isn't one of us?" "Well he doesn't kill every one who doesn't look like they're hobbies Trying to be a four year old's movie villian ...or are trying to look like a star war's." Jbsnicket 03:33, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

That's bad game design on the part of Bethesda. In-game, the Enclave is actually the good guys, as Eden EXPLICITLY states that Autumn does not want genocide. In fact, it is the Brotherhood that provokes the Enclave into a full out war. Tagaziel ^(call!) 09:48, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Autumn may not have wanted genocide, but Eden did. As he was their leader, they're the bad guys. And how did the Brotherhood provoke the Enclave? If memory serves, the Enclave initiated hostilities when they took control of the purifier. The purifier practically being on the Brotherhood's front door, I'd say thats pretty aggressive. Knight Captain Ski ^(talk) 01:46, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Eden was a puppet. Autumn was in control and free of Eden's strings. Not to mention that the Purifier was not under Brotherhood control and the only reason the Brotherhood had for attacking is Madison Li's "it's just not right" excuse. It's pathetic storytelling. The Brotherhood had no reason to attack the Enclave, especially not after the Wanderer was interrogated by Autumn and learned from Eden that Autumn does not want to poison the Potomac. Tagaziel ^(call!) 08:11, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

As far as the rest of the Enclave knew, Eden was a real person. The Enclave was following Eden's orders right up till Take It Back!. So he was their leader till then. And as for the Brotherhood having no reason for attacking, what about all those Enclave outposts where they're executing Wastelanders? The CW detachment's self-appointed role of Wasteland police would seem to go against that kind of thing. And if you give Autumn the code during the interrogation, he executes you! Knight Captain Ski ^(talk) 14:53, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Even though I believe that the Enclave are not actually the Devil in Disguise I still think they have done some questionable things. They are a lot like some of the Pre-War Governments/Current Governments today. Especially in the way of caring only for a certain type of the populous. Or while destroying entire communities with one hand, creating a better place for others with the other hand. Anyways while on this subject I do believe that the creators of Fallout set the time after the Great War way too high. As in the HUMAN RACE should have made if not a complete recovery after 200 years. Honestly to think of a good comparison it would be like having the entire ecosystem of living things still running around like a chicken with its head cut off 200 years after the Asteroid that killed the Dinosaurs hit earth. Just saying 200 years; the Fallout 3 universe seems more like 50 if not lower.

Kudos for an unconventional rationalization on the Enclave that makes very real rational sense. I disagree on the rebuilding thing though. Total nuclear devastation is not something to be taken lightly or underestimated, it took humanity thousands upon thousands of years to get even remotely close to it's cultural and technological peak. It would realistically take -much- longer than a mere 200 years in honest retrospect... 00:29, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

Why would it take longer though? It's not like everyone has to completely rediscover and reinvent everything. Sure, all the tech isn't NEARLY as widespread but it's just a matter of picking up all the pieces and trying to put them back together. A bunch of nukes wouldn't be able to wipe out humanity's progress, just stall it. The MAIN issue of the Great War was that it completely wiped out Earth's infrastructure which in turn isolated a whole lot of people. NCR is probably one of the most successful factions out there because they've partially rebuilt that infrastructure. BOLTMAN FOREVER 14:44, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Enclave is no more bad than the New California Republic or the Brotherhood of Steel is good. Good and bad is subjective to how the individual perceives it, because there are always two sides too a coin. The collective herd likes to use such petty labels so they don't have to think so hard. The truth is though, there are only shades of gray, and the fact Fallout is a post-nuclear/apocalyptic RPG set in a universe similar but inherently different from our own... views on morality would be much more complex than the modern moral sensibilities of today. I actually touched on this in a comment on a very recent popular blog of mine and I'd like to share it.

"It honestly baffles me people hope to make any real sense (to me anyway) with this kind of completely unrealistic and totally unsuitable logic in the kind of world Fallout is.

Applying your own personal present-day moral sensibilities to a fictional retro-futuristic universe not even -remotely- analogous to the real one comes across to me as totally ridiculous because it just breaks the fourth wall. Because at that point, it's not about Fallout, it's about Fallout in the real world.

That's why I don't use or share my own morals in Fallout or Fallout related activities, because I'm not basing my opinions and morals. I'm basing new ones on what I personally imagine it'd be like living in the Fallout world... not living in the real one."

But needless to say and long rant short, the Enclave are not bad to me. 00:39, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

I always just viewed it as the Enclave were just bad for most people that were not part of the Enclave. They've attempted to exterminate pretty much everyone with the FEV Curling-13, have shown to be hostile towards everyone but the Salvatores (a ruthless mob family) and a select few individuals, and preformed quite ruthless experiments on various Vault Dwellers and Wastelanders in order to achieve their goals. I don't see how any Wastelander in their right mind would even think to join the Enclave if they knew about half of their reputation.

As for the whole "Fallout logic/morals do not equate to anything in real life" argument, I'm going to call bullsh*t on that. There's only two things that are distinctly different in the Fallout universe from the real one, technological progress and the nature of mutations/radiation. Other than that, everything else has been shown to be fairly analogous to real life. I mean, how differently would someone need to act and think in a real life apocalyptic scenario compared to survival in the Fallout world? Hell, even the technology isn't all that alien. It's pretty much just 50s technology with a retro futuristic spin, which is something VERY analogous real life, just real life in the not so distant past. Not to mention the Fallout universe is created from a perspective of our own world. The Fallout world just basically asks "What if by the 50s, various aspects of retro science turned out to be real and the timeline diverged and then a world-wide catastrophe happened." This isn't an alien planet we're talking about here, it's just Earth but one where some things turned out differently. That's what a huge chunk sci-fi is all about, taking fantastical technology and asking what happens when you place it in the real world. BOLTMAN FOREVER 15:11, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

To the original poster for this: You've obviously not played or read up on Fallout 2. The Enclave are evil, plain and simple. Why? 1. They kidnapped innocent people from Vault 13 and Arroyo to use in horrible experiments to create a deadly virus, a modified version of FEV. 2. They planned to use that virus to kill everyone on the mainland. Super Mutants, Ghouls, Wastelanders, Brotherhood, NCR, EVERYONE. The Enclave sees themselves as the only "normal and pure" humans left in the entire world, and everyone else is expendable. 3. The Enclave can be seen in the Capital Wasteland killing innocent wastelanders, caravan merchants, or generally anything that wanders near them. They have several outposts where one trooper with a flamer is roasting ghouls, because the Enclave don't see a difference between sane and feral ghouls. 4. The Enclave believe they have a right to everything simply because they are the corrupt remnants of the American government, and America essentially does not exist anymore. They hated the fact that the BoS made what was once the Pentagon into their HQ simply because the Enclave think they should have had the Pentagon. 5. The Enclave is responsible for the Vault Experiments. Instead of using the 100+ Vaults to save at least a fraction of the American people, most Vaults simply were set up to be physical, social, and psychological test grounds because the way the Enclave saw it, "They would be dead anyway". This shadow government blatantly doesn't care about its own American citizens and they are only interested in themselves and saving "pure humanity". 6. Even the Enclave Remnants from FO:NV realized what the Enclave was doing was wrong. They were lucky they didn't die when the Oil Rig was destroyed and Navarro overrun and they themselves had to go into hiding because if people knew who they once worked for, everyone would try to kill them. Now, I'm not going to talk about whether the Brotherhood of Steel is good or bad because you didn't ask that. Obviously, the Capital Wasteland Chapter is more "good" compared to the West Coast Chapters, but I'm not going to get into that. But, The Enclave is bad. Why people defend these xenophobic, superiority complex, murderous band of zealots is beyond me. Oh, and the Enclave is dead people. Get over it! 71.171.112.31 10:50, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Although this talk page is old, I thought it might me important to add that Colonel Autumn does not seem to be inherently evil. President Eden, sure, he wants to purge all people minus the enclave and vault dwellers. Colonel Autumn, however, believed Eden's plans were too extreme, and thought that if the Enclave controlled Project Purity, they could gain influence over the locals. This is one of the reasons why I would've liked to side with Autumn, despite his killing of James. The B.o.S. seems too divisive and unproductive, whereas the Enclave has the supplies and troops to actually make difference in the Wastes. Also as the player has the option to destroy Eden, Autumn is the next in line for leadership. If the player character was allowed to side with Autumn, I think good things could potentially happen to the Capital Wasteland, more so than the original 2 choices.

I prefer Autumn's ways over Eden's, and I hate the Fallout 2 Enclave. Fallout 3 Enclave, under Autumn, that is, is more relatable. Of course, to reinforce the fact that the Enclave is bad no matter what, Bethesda made Autumn look like a cold-blooded machine by killing Janice Kaplinski and you, although I feel that the latter was just to make you not able to join the Enclave, even if you showed willingness to help. Eden was pretty much a reincarnation of Richardson. The Enclave is not a democracy any more, because desperate times call for desperate measures, and to call up an example from history, Abe Lincoln instituted Martial Law in some cities as wartime measures. Granted, the U. S. wasn't a bombed out ruin, but still, emergency protocols. Fallout 2 Enclave were pretty much democratic nazis, but Fallout 3 Enclave were morally gray. I just wish Bethesda hadn't butchered it by making Autumn a ruthless homicidal.

Oh, and I know that this post is old. (The Enclave is Bae (talk) 23:10, June 9, 2015 (UTC))

You do realize that Autumn was just blindly following Eden's orders, without realizing at all that the ZAX planned on doing something else. So, relatable == gullible as hell? Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 23:16, June 9, 2015 (UTC)

Proof? (The Enclave is Bae (talk) 12:57, June 11, 2015 (UTC))

LW: Don't you see? You've been used. You're a pawn. You deserve better.

Autumn: And just what "better" is there for me? What would you have me do?

LW: Why are you doing this? Why give your allegiance to a machine?

Autumn: I am sworn to protect the Presidency. The chain of command must be upheld. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

LW: If you're in charge, then you can stop the plans of some mad machine.

Autumn: Stop? Now? Are you out of your mind? There's nothing else to be done. We will push forward, and we will prevail! {confused, really doubting, but trying to sound assertive}

His dialogue in the final quest kind of speaks for itself. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 14:48, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

I feel like that was a futile attempt to convince the Lone Wanderer that the Enclave wasn't as divided as he/she thought, even though dialogue with President Eden and Autumn's ZAX Destruct tape implies that the two leaders distrust each other to the point of Autumn ignoring Eden's orders and ordering all personnel at Raven Rock to Project Purity. So, no, Autumn isn't as gullible or as much of a pawn as you think.

That's a very... terrible excuse as the developers themselves added that note that he's doubting his own words, meaning he is saying them because he believes they're true. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 22:10, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

Autumn might not have known 100% of what President Eden was planning, but in no way was Autumn just a pawn, and in no way was he just blindly following his orders. There are many different examples that I can cite, but the most powerful one that needs to be mentioned, is the fact that Autumn has a hidden override code in order to take command of the Enclave should he ever need to remove Eden from power.

As Autumn tells you himself, that he intends to use the reservoir as a means for recruitment, as he knew that his father's legacy was quickly dwindling, and that in-order to rebuild America, some hard compromises were needing to be made. Being exposed to the radioactive wastes, with their officers not even in power-armour, it was only a matter of time before his Enclave chapter would no longer constitute "Pure humans." - the moment he figures out that Eden plans on wiping out the Enclave's only chance to stabilize the Capital Wastelands? He would have used that override code on Eden.

Now, you can argue against that. But the fact of the matter is that Eden's authority was already diminishing long before the final battle for the reservoir. As in, over extremely small stuff. Not only does he override Eden's order to have the Lone Wanderer see him personally, to the point where Autumn ordered you to be shot on sight, but then there is the fact that Eden had to use an outside agent in order for his conspiracy to come to possible fruition.

It can be argued that Autumn is a pawn. But the evidence also shows that he was ambitious, and a leader in his own right. As in, it is proven that his troops are willing to follow Autumn's orders over Eden's, at a moments notice. That means his authority has been established over Eden's for a loooooong time, to the point of unwavering loyalty having been established, as well. 69.247.6.120 22:23, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

Except we do not know when he got that code and made the recording about it. It could've been decades ago. All we know is what he's like right now. And right now, he's stating he is following the President, protecting the President, etc. Ordering the death of the Lone Wanderer is the one time he is shown directly going against the President and we do not even know why he did it. He may have considered the Lone Wanderer a threat to Eden and wanted him taken out, or a threat to his own position, or he just hates wastelanders. We do not know. We have no idea what he would've done if Eden had actually ordered him to use the vial, as Eden doesn't trust him enough Heck, Autumn doesn't even try to refute the Lone Wanderer when they call him a pawn. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 22:30, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

That is ignoring the part where not even a minute after you speak with Autumn, Eden has to contact you in secret, meaning he does not have faith in Autumn blindly following his orders as you are suggesting in contradiction, with Autumn directly undermining Eden by commanding all of the Enclave personnel at Raven Rock, to shoot you on sight.

Now, I know that you also acknowledged the undermining bit. But I think you are failing to understand that every single one of the Enclave troopers, scientists and officers, are 100% willing to show more loyalty towards Autumn, rather than their own president. The bullsh*t that Autumn feeds the PC in that stasis-cell... does not hold a light to the clear example being set not even a minute afterwards. 69.247.6.120 22:35, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

Um, those lines of dialogue are from the Purifier, when trying to convince him to surrender without fight, not from the cell conversation. And I stated that Eden does not trust Autumn. Paladin117^{>>iff bored;} 22:39, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

I was never referring to that. I am specifically rebutting your claim that Autumn is a mindless drone of unwavering loyalty, by underlying significant events that prove to the contrary.

Now, you are correct in your analysis, in that Autumn likely did not know about what Eden was planning. When it comes to that, though, it is impossible to prove either way with current knowledge, which is why I am not arguing that position. There is no way to tell if he would accept Eden's plan, or overthrow him. The entire point of my rebuttal, is to show that Autumn was his own man, was considered a better leader than Eden, and has quite a few precedents to establish that he is willing to assert his own authority over Eden's, to the point where Eden no longer trusts Autumn, and Autumn no longer trusts Eden. 69.247.6.120 22:47, June 11, 2015 (UTC)

The Enclave is missing a checks and balances system. Although it is the remnants of America there is a very slight resemblance. Although I do agree that Bethesda should of let us play as the Enclave. It would have been a cool addition to be able to restore America. Despite the fact that the Enclave are genocidal maniacs, it is still extremely hard for me to not identify with them since they are America. JUST, STOP DISCUSSING FICTIONAL ETHICAL SITUATIONS AND JUST PETITION BETHESDA TO MAKE THE ENCLAVE PLAYABLE!

-Jetfire, Fallout is an Amazing game

Autumn is evil as his karma says so. He don't want the Modified FEV to be used, but it could be because it would kill him as well, remember he was hit be a lot of Rad when James caused the disruption in the control room.